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Finally Found Something That Works...


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#21 Joyrider

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Posted 02 April 2020 - 01:45 PM

If you want a cheaper round for practice I also highly recommend the Speer BTSP 165gr. They are very inexpensive and I have gotten some very impressive groups with them. My best so far was something around 2.75” at 400yd. Pretty sure they’re still under 40$ for the box. Way less than the Sierra or hornady rounds.

Thanks!

That is a nice group!!!!


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#22 Joyrider

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Posted 02 April 2020 - 01:48 PM

Rob, I've had big changes in accuracy in some of my load developement by just swapping out my primer. Over the years I've had the best and most consistent luck with Winchester primers...WSR...WLR...WLRM's.

 

PS.....If you want to try some out, I have a tray of 100 here with your name on em. 

Thanks!  I have been using the CIL Br-2 for no particular reason other than those were the first ones I bought and I never tried anything else.

My group above was shot as the sun was getting low on 31-Mar as I "hunted coyotes".  Now that March is over and the ranges are closed I won't be shooting any more for a while....  :-(


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#23 Joyrider

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Posted 02 April 2020 - 01:52 PM

I ordered some primers and a couple of things from budgetshootersupply.ca (thanks for that link in another thread 3macs1)  Check out the "your oder shipped" message I received from them below - awesome!  :-)
-----------------------------

GOOD NEWS!!! Your items have been shipped.
 
Your items were gently taken from our shelves with sterilized contamination-free gloves and placed onto a satin pillow.
 
A team of 50 employees inspected your products and polished them to make sure they were in the best possible condition before mailing.
 
My packing specialist from Japan lit a candle and a hush fell over the crowd as he put your products into the finest packaging that money can buy.
 
We all had a wonderful celebration afterwards and the whole party is set to march down the street to the post office, where the entire town of Surrey will wave 'Bon Voyage!!' to your package.
 
I hope you had a wonderful time shopping with me on the Internet. I sure did. Your picture is on our wall as 'Customer Of The Year'. I’m exhausted but can't wait for you to come back again.
 
If the tracking number does not appear below, the carrier will e-mail you the number shortly.
 
Please let me know when you receive it and what shape it is in.
Have fun reloading!!
Please tell your friends about me!!
Thank you very much for buying!!!!
Regards, Henry

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#24 3macs1

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Posted 02 April 2020 - 02:08 PM

 

I ordered some primers and a couple of things from budgetshootersupply.ca (thanks for that link in another thread 3macs1)  Check out the "your oder shipped" message I received from them below - awesome!  :-)
-----------------------------

GOOD NEWS!!! Your items have been shipped.
 
Your items were gently taken from our shelves with sterilized contamination-free gloves and placed onto a satin pillow.
 
A team of 50 employees inspected your products and polished them to make sure they were in the best possible condition before mailing.
 
My packing specialist from Japan lit a candle and a hush fell over the crowd as he put your products into the finest packaging that money can buy.
 
We all had a wonderful celebration afterwards and the whole party is set to march down the street to the post office, where the entire town of Surrey will wave 'Bon Voyage!!' to your package.
 
I hope you had a wonderful time shopping with me on the Internet. I sure did. Your picture is on our wall as 'Customer Of The Year'. I’m exhausted but can't wait for you to come back again.
 
If the tracking number does not appear below, the carrier will e-mail you the number shortly.
 
Please let me know when you receive it and what shape it is in.
Have fun reloading!!
Please tell your friends about me!!
Thank you very much for buying!!!!
Regards, Henry

 

Cool. LOL Henry is a great guy to deal with. One of the best IMO but clearly losing marbles like the rest of us in this :(

take care


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#25 KEVIN

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Posted 02 April 2020 - 04:10 PM

yessirree, Joe, by the looks of Robs message, times have certainly changied for ol Henry ..laugh.png laugh.png laugh.png Been a long time since I ordered from him. 


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If you take your kids hunting,.....You won't have to go hunting for your kids.....KS/85

#26 3macs1

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Posted 02 April 2020 - 04:28 PM

yessirree, Joe, by the looks of Robs message, times have certainly changied for ol Henry ..laugh.png laugh.png laugh.png Been a long time since I ordered from him. 

It's the little guys Kevin like him and may not come out of this with a business in place. I never bought a lot from him over the years either but what I have was zero issues

sad.png


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#27 Joyrider

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Posted 27 May 2020 - 12:43 PM

Is loading hot (above max) done....?  If your casings are looking OK at max, does anyone ever go up a bit?

The reason i ask is (as you can see above in the thread as well) my gun got better and better until I hit the max load and I'm wondering if I go a bit more if I will continue to see improvement?

 

My thinking is clearly there is a safety margin there - the max listed has to be safe in all guns.  With a new modern gun I would think you could sneak up a bit.

Obviously not recommended and all of the usual safety warnings around pressure signs, but in real life, does anyone have experience or is this a "oh my god, don't be an idiot!" kind of thing?  :-)

Rob


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#28 1NSH Dave

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Posted 27 May 2020 - 05:12 PM

Obviously the usual disclaimers apply of “I’m no expert so be careful with what I say”.

I wouldn’t say you’re at a “you’re being crazy” state...yet. Lol.

If you look at many different loading data sources for the same caliber and bullet weight and powder you will likely find a variety of max load weights. Books have to play it safe obviously. It is often said that older manuals have different values than newer ones of the same brand as well.

I believe the most important thing is not to strictly obey Min/Max values but rather to pay close and strict attention to you’re results. If you’re watching your pressure signs I think you’ll be ok. Sometimes I don’t even dare go up to max with certain loads as I start to see signs before I’m even close.

Every gun is different and so there is no one size fits all.

Hope this helps, and again I’m no expert!! Be safe and be smart with it.
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Time to start hunting them coyotes, I think!!!!

#29 KEVIN

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Posted 28 May 2020 - 08:57 AM

Rob....I've had a few rifles ove rthe years where that sweetest spot was right at MAX LOAD !   Worked perfectly for a LOT of years afterwards, and I had no need to go any further. 

 

By the same token, I did push the envelope a couple times with a few rifles at **over max load** for the exact reasons you're asking about.  Nothing was ever gained in group shrinkage...some got worse after the great near max load groups. 

 

Words that were told to me a LOOOOOOOONG time ago, when I first started loading for myself...and I have always lived by them when reloading...." Remember...it's YOUR face behind the receiver when you pull the trigger...OR WORSE...one of your family or good friends" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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If you take your kids hunting,.....You won't have to go hunting for your kids.....KS/85

#30 Joyrider

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Posted 28 May 2020 - 02:46 PM

Thanks to both of you!  Your advice is about where I am as well.  I think I might try a small amount over and see if it gets any better or I see the same behavior Kevin did.   

Kevin: The theme of your bolded text is what was running through my head at max load already!  ha ha

Thanks for the sanity check D & K!

R


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#31 1NSH Dave

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Posted 28 May 2020 - 04:47 PM

I don’t know what all loads you’ve tried, but if you haven’t tried going lower charges I’d give that a go too. There are often multiple accuracy “nodes” they call them. If you start a loading work up from very low and go up in small levels you will see the group sizes will fluctuate. They will shrink and then grow and then shrink again and grow again and shrink again and so on. It’s an interesting phenomenon based on barrel harmonics, and the speed of the shockwave through the metal vs speed of bullet.

Long story short there could also be a very accurate load much lower down.
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Time to start hunting them coyotes, I think!!!!

#32 Joyrider

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Posted 01 June 2020 - 09:32 AM

I don’t know what all loads you’ve tried, but if you haven’t tried going lower charges I’d give that a go too. There are often multiple accuracy “nodes” they call them. If you start a loading work up from very low and go up in small levels you will see the group sizes will fluctuate. They will shrink and then grow and then shrink again and grow again and shrink again and so on. It’s an interesting phenomenon based on barrel harmonics, and the speed of the shockwave through the metal vs speed of bullet.

Long story short there could also be a very accurate load much lower down.

Yea, I did that, I was expecting based on internet posts to find my sweet spot in the middle range somewhere.  I started at the starting and went up in .2 gr increments - 10 shots each to eliminate any "twitches" on my part.  I got do about 1.5 MOA at one point near the middle (I don't have my notes handy) but really nothing great.  I had lots of loads that were 4 or 5" groups.  

I was pretty surprised to find no really great grouping until I was edging up on the max and then right at max had my best results.   That's why I want to go up a touch more and see what happens.  Of course it's all been on hold with the ranges closed.  I have 50 cases prepped and primed - just have to get a rainy day with nothing else going on to load them up.  On your advice I got some Sierra to try.  I deviated slightly from your suggestion and got some tipped gameking - I am excited to see - hopefully they are not so different that I have to start completely over!

Anyway - I am looking forward to getting this rifle figured out!  :-)

R


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#33 KEVIN

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Posted 01 June 2020 - 10:18 AM

Rob...10 shot groups are a waste of powder, primers, bullets, reloading time and more wear on your barrel.  I started out doing 5 shot groups...then over the years, figured out that I can tell as much with 4 shot groups as to what's coming next...lol

 

I use 3/10 of a grain for difference in my test loads...when I hit the best one, it's only 1/10 of a grain in either direction to see how much more the group will shrink.

I also use a fine point sharpie and mark my test loads on my brass (( so there is NO mixup when put into a 50 round box)...I got anal about placing my rounds in my MTM boxes...I ALWAYS put the lesser loads to the left, and place my next higher load directly to the right of it. Just a habit I got into and continued forward with it for over 35 years !

 

The sharpie is easily wiped off with 99% alcohol...or with #0000 steel wool if your cleaning up your brass with a cordless drill /chuck.

 

Sometimes, the best way to fek up a perfect 3 shot group is to fire the 4th shot  !!!  wink.png wink.png wink.png   Ask any bench / target shooter  laugh.png laugh.png


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If you take your kids hunting,.....You won't have to go hunting for your kids.....KS/85

#34 3macs1

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Posted 01 June 2020 - 10:56 AM

AGREE 100 % on the 10 shot groups . I know that is the way we were raised but 5 for me since a lot of years. I never tried less but should have

Cheers


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#35 Thunderstick

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Posted 01 June 2020 - 01:02 PM

I sight in my firearms one shot at a time. Probably sounds weird but if your in a good rest and you know your steady, I can't see firing more than one. I check the taget each time, do my adjustments until I am as accurate as I can get. Its a lot of range walking, taping holes but can't see firing more shots if the gun is off. I always have a good sense if I pulled or moved when firing. Just me, but some rounds are friggin expensive to be wasting. I used to shoot boxes off, now its somewhere between 4-10 checking open sites and scope set up.


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#36 Joyrider

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Posted 01 June 2020 - 02:03 PM

Thanks all!  I think you guys are right, I was enjoying it and getting used to the new gun before, but really don't need it any more.  Thanks for the comments before I load up!

Kevin: I do the same thing with the sharpie.  :-)  I know better than to trust my memory with anything.  Besides, even if I had them all lined up right I know i'd just tip the holder over!  ha ha


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#37 1NSH Dave

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Posted 01 June 2020 - 06:19 PM

I also sharpie my loads! On smaller stuff like pistol ammo I will paint the base with nail polish and make matching marks in my book. I got packs of neon colours from dollar store for that purpose.

When I do a ladder test like that I will load 3 rounds of each weight. Usually .2 or .3 grs differences. Kind of depends on what range of weights I’m doing and how many total there will be.

When I shoot them I do not fire all 3 of a group together. I find that leads to excitement as you see a good group starting, or expectations that load should be good etc. I put a large cardboard sheet up and place 1” black squares on it, as many as I have loads, spacing them about 6” apart. I also load a few extra of the start load to quickly zero it close enough. I will start with the lowest and fire 1 round at square 1. Then the next load 1rd at square 2 and so on until I fired 1rd o each. Then I let the gun cool some. I also take my team between shots, just enough so I’m not going too hot. Next I fire 1rd each again working from high to low this time. Let it cool, and repeat with the last working up.

I find this helps take away any excitement of a good group forming and then pulling the last round of it! Also try to refrain from looking hard to see where your shot lands. Just shoot the groups and let the paper tell the tale when you get down there.
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Time to start hunting them coyotes, I think!!!!

#38 1NSH Dave

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Posted 01 June 2020 - 06:29 PM

Something else I just remembered!! When you are looking at your many groups of the ladder test it is not always the tiniest ones you want to pick. There is another factor to look at and that is consistency with surrounding weights. It’s hard to explain in type but I will try my best to not get long winded on it. Lol.

Going along with the barrel harmonics I mentioned that cause fluctuations in the group sizes, you may also notice the group LOCATION will shift, even though you haven’t changed the zero or aim at all. It’s weird but it happens. And the differences can be shocking. Like well over an inch at only 100m.

So what you want to look for is a tight group that has the groups above and below it in the same general area compared to your point of aim. I will explain why in a minute.

What you do NOT want is to pick a tight group that has its neighbor group only .2 or worse .1gr different and it sails an inch or two sideways.

The rationale: unless you have the tightest control on your loading methods, and the finest scale money can buy, you will inevitably have variances in your powder weights. Of at least .1-.2gr. Which could easily correspond to a range of .2-.4 in a whole batch. You want to choose a load that is “forgiving”. One that has its neighboring groups land in the same area.

I hope that makes some sense. If not let me know I will try to explain again.
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Time to start hunting them coyotes, I think!!!!

#39 Joyrider

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Posted 02 June 2020 - 09:12 AM

Those are great tips!  Thank you so much!  Especially the last point - I wouldn't have thought of that - thanks!  

I was surprised with how much the groups moved around - I will pay attention to the "group groupings" next time I am out!

Thanks for sharing - I am new at reloading so I really appreciate it!  


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#40 Moose Magoo

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Posted 02 June 2020 - 06:41 PM

Thanks!  I have been using the CIL Br-2 for no particular reason other than those were the first ones I bought and I never tried anything else.

My group above was shot as the sun was getting low on 31-Mar as I "hunted coyotes".  Now that March is over and the ranges are closed I won't be shooting any more for a while....  :-(

 

 

Salons, campgrounds, day care centers, fishing, etc. etc. are either open now or will be by the middle of June but rifle ranges are closed until at least June 30th.  Makes no sense at all because even before covid people kept their distance at ranges. It’s just a smart thing to do. 
 

Today I sent an email to the Premier, Minister of DLF and Deputy Minister of DLF to consider opening the ranges. Be interesting to see if I get a response. As well I left a voice message with the “Good Doctor” asking for them to be re-opened and if not what logic would there be in not re-opening now. 
 


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......... and Trudeau says "the budget will balance itself" 





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