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#1 3macs1

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Posted 12 August 2020 - 06:38 AM

Not my words but be careful. Good way to lose a gun or worse especially in a semi

 

Challenger Shotshells

 https://imgur.com/a/B52buE2

Was out on the weekend, had multiple failures. Complete Hull separation. It made for some great stoppages in a semi, and a pump gun. I emailed Challenger for a little SA, and was shocked at their reply. I have enclosed it. I now need a new source for ammo. Spread the word.

From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2020 5:28:08 PM
To: 'Ian Thomson' <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Challenger Ammunition


Hi,



After to have check everything about this lot number we don’t find something wrong about it. The only thing that we can said about this problem it’s that the hull and the brass are not very strong together . We can have this problem sometimes with gas operated shotgun and shell with low brass .



Best Regards /Cordialement



Arnaud CRY

 

 

 

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#2 Tyson10gauge

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Posted 12 August 2020 - 07:03 AM

Used them since first came out , only shoot the high brass loads , never issue , FTF or come apart , my out look is this use CHEAP ammo get cheap results , that low brass stuff if you look around is having issues not just challenger as this thread speaks of , I've never heard down this way on it yet but I've seen and heard if Winchester and Federal both having issues with low brass budget rounds .

If one doesn't do homework on stuff they intend to use and are skimpy on spending but expects high results then one is in for disappointment somewhere along the line .

I certainly would not fire low brass outta my semis or pumps , hell even my singles get high brass , might be several boxes of low brass there from many moons ago but it's certainly better quality hulls than what's made today
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#3 3macs1

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Posted 12 August 2020 - 07:17 AM

I cannot say I have ever used challenger other than some 410 which I blew the ends off one box so never used them again

Some sware by them

Another pic from a guy who says to watch your high brass from bulging which would be easy to do

His are also slugs so use a different hull. Have to love seeing powder past the shot cup NOT

Unfortunately those who use them for target shooting have to use low brass to get the sized they need for clays shooting

 Agree all of the old hulls are much better quality

Cheers

 

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#4 682bubba

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Posted 12 August 2020 - 08:30 AM

I HAD the same thing happen with factory federal hulls in my 10 ga hunting scared the bejesus out of me thank jesus i didn't fire the 3rd shot the brass went out but hull stayed in the chamber on the 2nd shot. Federal was called i sent some pics they sent a check for the cost of the case i bought.It happened to alot of guys  here to point were most guys refused to shoot the factory loads and went to reloading remington hulls.


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#5 Rembolt

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Posted 12 August 2020 - 09:31 AM

Have shot a fair number of Challenger target loads over the last 5 or so years both 12 and 20 ga . I have suffered no worse than with any other brand . the most common issue would be dud primers . I have also suffered pierced primers on occasion with several brands . have had one federal 3" steel load that suffered head separation leaving the plastic hull stuck in the chamber and the head jammed in the action . If you buy and shoot enough ammo you will see failures . it is mass produced and is no 100% fool proof .    


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#6 KEVIN

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Posted 12 August 2020 - 10:32 AM

I have had the same experiences as Lloyd with the Challengers. Usually a dud primer is the worst that'll happen. They seem to be known for duds / failures sometimes. BUTTT, I also had it happen with Remington's, Winchester's and Federal's. Like was mentioned...if you shoot enuff, you'll have a few issues with pretty well ANY brand of shell.

 

I can say this tho...I attend The Challenger shoot every year. I have for the past 6 or 7 years...The first 100 registrants get 100 rounds free(bucket of Challenger target loads)...normally over 100 shooters so that's 10,000 rounds at this shoot (minimum)...don't recall any issues being bought up at all,  the past few years at any of these shoots. 

Seeing / hearing this stuff always makes me wonder...sometimes, stuff posted on line leaves a lot to be suspect....

 

are the true facts always being told ?

 

Did the guy reload them and THEN have that happen ??  and was just saying that they were factory loads to qualm any negligence on his part..

 

were they stored in a hotter than normal environment for a period of time, perhaps weakening them at the critical crimping spot ?

 

lots of things to ponder when you receive what's being broadcast. ...always leaves me wondering.huh.png


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#7 3macs1

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Posted 12 August 2020 - 11:33 AM

The 10 ga federal problem was limited to one batch or lot number around 2009 . I remember it well, Any before or after were fine

They were also easy to detect but you had to look at the hull prior to firing it for the cracks above the brass and know about the issue as you know

As far as dud primers go on challenger they use cheddite so it doesn't shock me and primer piercing seems to be more common on brownings O/U with the cheddites. Also their Estate / cheddite hulls are nothing to write home about and cheap IMO

 If they were reloads the center of the primer would be shiny silver

 I would hate to know now many rounds I have fired over the years and cannot remember even one 209 winchester or remington primer dud and there were years of 20,000 in our house growing up, Cheddite, fereral and cci for sure

 Maybe we were lucky

Cheers

 

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#8 3macs1

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Posted 12 August 2020 - 12:22 PM

I have had the same experiences as Lloyd with the Challengers. Usually a dud primer is the worst that'll happen. They seem to be known for duds / failures sometimes. BUTTT, I also had it happen with Remington's, Winchester's and Federal's. Like was mentioned...if you shoot enuff, you'll have a few issues with pretty well ANY brand of shell.

 

I can say this tho...I attend The Challenger shoot every year. I have for the past 6 or 7 years...The first 100 registrants get 100 rounds free(bucket of Challenger target loads)...normally over 100 shooters so that's 10,000 rounds at this shoot (minimum)...don't recall any issues being bought up at all,  the past few years at any of these shoots. 

Seeing / hearing this stuff always makes me wonder...sometimes, stuff posted on line leaves a lot to be suspect....

 

are the true facts always being told ?

 

Did the guy reload them and THEN have that happen ??  and was just saying that they were factory loads to qualm any negligence on his part..

 

were they stored in a hotter than normal environment for a period of time, perhaps weakening them at the critical crimping spot ?

 

lots of things to ponder when you receive what's being broadcast. ...always leaves me wondering.huh.png

I am not willing to question it. I have seen what it can do in my life time a couple of times

My closest call was with a remington 1100 28ga when a 28ga STS hull yes a STS hull went 1/2 down the barrel with no brass

It was the second shot of two in the gun which saved my ass

Cheers

 

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#9 Caper391

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Posted 12 August 2020 - 02:56 PM

I've shot multiple cases of both target and waterfowl loads through a Browning semi and pump. (all 12 gauge) Not one FTF or FTE...perhaps I was just lucky. In saying that, I haven't purchased any challenger ammo recently...shooting stuff that was purchased quite a few years ago.


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#10 682bubba

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Posted 12 August 2020 - 03:07 PM

The 10 ga federal problem was limited to one batch or lot number around 2009 . I remember it well, Any before or after were fine

They were also easy to detect but you had to look at the hull prior to firing it for the cracks above the brass and know about the issue as you know

As far as dud primers go on challenger they use cheddite so it doesn't shock me and primer piercing seems to be more common on brownings O/U with the cheddites. Also their Estate / cheddite hulls are nothing to write home about and cheap IMO

 If they were reloads the center of the primer would be shiny silver

 I would hate to know now many rounds I have fired over the years and cannot remember even one 209 winchester or remington primer dud and there were years of 20,000 in our house growing up, Cheddite, fereral and cci for sure

 Maybe we were lucky

Cheers

 

l6Hnd6S.jpg

Well it happened to me in 2007 they were brand new out of the box out of a new case and federal told me it was over pressure causing the separation the gun was bought brand new for the start of the season and feds were the only good load available at the time that had any speed for the 10.I never had any problem like that with any of my fed hulls in the reloads i made and since they covered my cost i was happy. 


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#11 3macs1

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Posted 12 August 2020 - 03:07 PM

Normally with stuff like this it is a bad lot and once identified fixed

 

Buddy shared the lot number from that 20ga hull separation

 

I would not fire any of that lot if I had it

 

Lot # 318032097


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#12 3macs1

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Posted 12 August 2020 - 03:10 PM

Well it happened to me in 2007 they were brand new out of the box out of a new case and federal told me it was over pressure causing the separation the gun was bought brand new for the start of the season and feds were the only good load available at the time that had any speed for the 10.I never had any problem like that with any of my fed hulls in the reloads i made and since they covered my cost i was happy. 

And it could have been 2007 I said around 2009. My memory is not that good tongue.png . These I am talking about had stress cracks right above the brass and would blow the plastic off especially in cold weather  no idea what federal blamed it on but one thing for sure if you have one it would have never made a reload

Plus you bought a few 100 federals 10ga with the remingtons from me if I recall did you not at that time so may be you have using a high percentage of them possibly in the reloads now so would not be seeing it. They would be early 90's vintage and issue free. Just a guess

I have always had a good stash of both in 10ga so never reloaded any more than once with steel shot and all mine are vintage ones, Crazy maybe but that is what I did

 Cheers

 There is the issue I am talking about. Split at the brass line followed by blowing apart if used

 

wink.png  and I think you were 100% right in your 2010 post

 

 

baltz526 wrote:This makes me think it is a new hull issue. I do not think i have any hulls from shells made after 2003 or so. I saved 10ga hulls from 1990 until i started reloading. had about 1200 to work with when i started reloading. 1/3 federals. I shoot a browning gold now, after making all the emptys with a BPS. I use the MM1035 wad not the sam 1. I wonder if it is a wad issue, being to long and rolled up into crimp?

icon_post_target.gifby bubba682 » Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:52 pm

 

Its not a wad problem its the hulls we have them coming apart in pumps and semi,s i had factory loads doin it i use sam 1,mm1035 and tungstin wads.Were usin all types of 10's and recipe's imo i think the hulls are too thin but i'm no expert....

 

 

 

 

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#13 3macs1

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Posted 12 August 2020 - 04:59 PM

Hull failures IMO due to location of fracture and popper wads cannot cycle the action on a semi

 

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#14 Rembolt

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Posted 12 August 2020 - 08:42 PM

Joe more details on what looks to be an 1100 remington in the second picture . that damage was caused by popper loads ?.
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#15 3macs1

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Posted 13 August 2020 - 06:52 AM

On the 1100 I am just guessing it cannot be a popper since that would lodge the wad and not cycle the action to allow another round to enter to be fired

 A hull failure however would lodge the plastic of the hull and cycle

 Pretty much impossible to double charge a lead shotgun load

Cheers


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#16 Rembolt

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Posted 13 August 2020 - 07:33 AM

I would have to agree the gun looks as though it may of had an obstruction directly in front of the chamber . first pic looks more like a wad that did not clear the forcing cone or lodged just ahead of it  . 


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#17 3macs1

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Posted 13 August 2020 - 07:41 AM

I would have to agree the gun looks as though it may of had an obstruction directly in front of the chamber . first pic looks more like a wad that did not clear the forcing cone or lodged just ahead of it  . 

The only thing I have found over the years with wads being stuck ( and I have had quite a few ) and semi's they do not have enough pressure to cycle the action to allow another round in so you know you have an issue. A hull separation however can . I have always shot with a wadd knocker on my belt

 Cheers


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#18 682bubba

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Posted 13 August 2020 - 09:02 AM

Fed had the problem goin on for a few years as i recall ,but a a stuck wad isn't bad as long it not the last shot and the guy doesn't loads new shells in a pump or along that example or somebody else grabs the gun not knowing theres a wad stuck at least ya recognize the different sound it makes.Hull separation is bad cause it sounds normal and if i fired the 3rd shell it would of looked like your pic, catestrofic would be the result.When i was talkin to baltz it came up then with him i let him no about me and a few of the guys havin the same problem in 10 with fed hulls i was lucky with the reloads but some guys had the same problems with reloads.So bad they switched to Remington hulls.A good way to check a reload hull is to twist the hull and base if it turns throw it away cause it will separate.Anyway i hope it never happens to me again cause it'll definatly make ya touch cloth if ya fire the next shell lol...


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#19 3macs1

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Posted 13 August 2020 - 10:43 AM

Fed had the problem goin on for a few years as i recall ,but a a stuck wad isn't bad as long it not the last shot and the guy doesn't loads new shells in a pump or along that example or somebody else grabs the gun not knowing theres a wad stuck at least ya recognize the different sound it makes.Hull separation is bad cause it sounds normal and if i fired the 3rd shell it would of looked like your pic, catestrofic would be the result.When i was talkin to baltz it came up then with him i let him no about me and a few of the guys havin the same problem in 10 with fed hulls i was lucky with the reloads but some guys had the same problems with reloads.So bad they switched to Remington hulls.A good way to check a reload hull is to twist the hull and base if it turns throw it away cause it will separate.Anyway i hope it never happens to me again cause it'll definatly make ya touch cloth if ya fire the next shell lol...

Agree. I have no worries since all of my 10ga hulls are like 94 vintage. I bought like 1000 1x direct from remington and maybe 500 twice I think Federals from reloading specialties back when one could get them state side and ship to Canada no problem

I think this is buddy's paw that held that 1100

Cheers

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#20 Rembolt

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Posted 13 August 2020 - 02:51 PM

All this is a reminder that gun safety and the operation of such . should never be taken lightly . A real eye opener for me was at neighbors house 20ish years ago ,who was /is a firearms instructor . He says come look at the remington left hand 742 I got . he gets the gun out of the closet which I though was odd for him takes it out of the case and hand me a 742 270win in about the same condition as the 1100 remington Joe posted the pic of . the story goes the owners brother (not my neighbor) borrowed the gun and some how managed to get a 30 06 cartridge chambered in the gun . supposedly he walk away with minor injuries .  every one take and be safe .  Joe the 1st pic new Browning A5 odds are a stuck wad from blooper shell . operator racked the action and fired the second shell with out checking the bore .    


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